how to prove vulnerability

[Tourette's]

Hi all. I have severe tics every day and extreme tics when High Court Enforcement Group misrepresent stuff.
I've had to buy and use protective headgear to go outside, e.g. to walk the dog, who is my therapy/meds for the Tourette's.

A Registered Social Landlord is after me for £17K in tribunal and enforcement costs, created by a vengeful judge when the RSL could have prevented the case by refunding under £400 and dismissing jurisdiction. We even won the case, including the argument that 48 is not 49.

That is, someone with severe Tourette's out argued a professional solicitor on a point of contract law ... and numbers.
I also out argued the judge on a procedural point, but the Tourette's got so bad at the hearing that I could not continue.

So my GP left the practice and she provided continuity of care for the neurological and psychological problems that I have.
I cannot fill in a MALG form as I dispute the debt, even after Appealing to the Upper Tribunal, where the judge there would not repeat the FTT Judge's ground for shifting costs, but that's another thing.

So how do I get the bailiffs to accept evidence from non-medical people e.g. neighbours that I am particularly vulnerable.

Current GP would need to support any letter with medical records from previous GP as I have never met her. Don't want to give medical evidence to Creditor. Oh and they have taken me to court for eviction and continue to argue that 48 is 49, and now also 53. Barrister has upheld all my points made. I have a solicitor this time and he agrees their accounting practices are absurd.

And HCE Group claimed, I think, that I am "required" to make an offer of repayment to be classed as vulnerable, snippet below highlighted:
"We write in relation to previous correspondence.

"We wonder if you are now in a position to provide the previously mentioned medical evidence in support of
your current circumstances. We do appreciate that Doctor's Surgeries across the country are not working at
usual capacity due to the current pandemic and in the event you do not yet have the medical documentation
to hand, we would ask you to confirm when they anticipate this will be provided.

"In the interim, you would also be required to submit an offer of repayment to enable you to begin making
payments towards the outstanding debt. We have enclosed an Income and Expenditure Form for your
attention and trust the same will be completed and returned to our office, within the next seven days."

Any ideas please?
Thanks,

Tourette's

[zeke]

Stop engaging with HCE Group. They are only after your money. A MALG evidence form is only for creditor use, bailiffs are not medically qualified to decide whether you are vulnerable.

Apply for a stay and a variation, and that will put HCE Group and all their fees out of the loop.

https://stopthebailiffs.uk/apply-to-sta ... gment.html

[Tourette's]

Hi Zeke and thanks for your swift response.

I read all the stuff and stopped ticcing so much that I had a more relaxed day, so that's a bonus for me. Continues today.

I've been unemployed and unavailable for work for decades due to disability.

Are any benefits 'disregarded' please cos I'm finding it difficult to fill in the N244 form, e.g. ESA (incl support group) or PIP (if I get it)?

Another bailiff website said to send Taking Control of Goods National Standards & evidence of out of work benefits, with N244.

It's hot so can they climb in through a window please?

I have the receipt for the protective head gear that I bought about a week after HCE contacted me. Could I send copy of that too?

I have ESA letter and was ready to send it to HCE. Do I not even send that please?

Thanks again. It's a relief to have less extreme Tourette's.

Tourette's

[Tourette's]

I meant form N245 for you. how do I request a set aside on N245 please?

Thanks

Tourette's

[zeke]

The N245 is an income and expenditure, just complete it with your financial information.

You also need to complete an N244 to apply for the stay and a variation.

You can make an N244 here: https://www.nationalbailiffadvice.uk/Template-n244.html

Benefits do not count towards paying a civil debt or a county court judgment. Rules on deduction from prescribed benefits only apply to unpaid court fines and council tax.

If you have no other income than benefits, then the court might not grant you a stay because the debt is unrecoverable. The bailiff will not want to spend time and money on dead cases, they will return the case back to the creditor.

Bailiffs cannot enter through an open window, Regulation 20(a) of the Taking Control of Goods Regulations 2014. If you leave a door unlocked, you have BIG trouble.

There is no need to send HCE anything. Do not send them documents about your benefits, they will mess you about and start coming round. The last thing you need is a confrontation.

In 2014, I had a client who had Tourettes, severe, and she applied for a stay and set aside a writ for a debt left by her ex. Just before going into the High Court master, her ticks were getting worse. As a workaround I got an A4 sheet of paper and wrote in large print "I HAVE TOURETTES - Please don't be offended" and the court usher placed it on the document bundle before the master. She got her stay!

[Tourette's]

Thank you. I will NOT send anything more to HCE.

"Benefits do not count towards paying a civil debt or a county court judgment. Rules on deduction from prescribed benefits only apply to unpaid court fines and council tax."

I don't understand. Are you saying money cannot be taken from benefits to pay this debt, e.g. even by the creditor?

Should I ask the CAB to help?

Where do care/therapy/help group/representation costs go on the N244? That's where any spare money goes.

Thanks

[zeke]

You can pay anything with your prescribed benefits, but High Court masters don't like making variation orders for people living exclusively on benefits.

There are no directions in the rules of court (Civil Procedure Rules and Practice Directions) on the treatment of benefit claimants, but from experience, I’ve had clients applications dismissed because they live on benefits. The debt becomes a total loss for the creditor because they are unable to enforce because bailiffs are unable to access goods or prize money out a benefits recipient.

High Court bailiffs do not have authority to enter the domestic property using reasonable force and must never use force against people. In 2015, parliament repealed legislation allowing reasonable force to enter property and force against people after a bailiff got nutted by a debtor who acted in self-defence.

The CAB standard scripted advice is to tell you to complete a form N245 and N244 then present you a list of solicitors for you to choose. They might refer you to someone to sell you a debt management program.

The N244 doesn't ask for your expenses, that goes on the N245.

The creditor with a High Court writ does not have the authority to apply for a deduction from benefits. Regulations for making a deduction from benefits only apply to council tax, court fines and child support.

Apply for a stay and a variation, it costs you nothing because you qualify for 100% court fee remission, and you might actually get your stay.

Worst case, the debt dies because you neither have the money or goods to pay it. The creditor's options end there.

Unless you have a car outside, I cant see how bailiffs are going to accomplish anything here, let alone get their fees paid.

[Tourette's]

Sorry I'm still struggling with the forms.
Do I use the High Court Number from Bradford District Registry or the "Order for recovery of award" County Court number from Liverpool on form N245?

Should I have a warrant number? for form N245 or is that the Writ of Control number.

Do I need to send a N244 and fill in another EX-160 for the separate application? I confused things by mentioning N244.

Can the debt cease to be exercisable on just the N244?

If the car's not on the highway and not up the drive can it be parked on private land and be safe, even if that land could be owned by the creditor?

To which Court do I send the N245 please? Bradford or Liverpool?

[zeke]

Sorry I'm still struggling with the forms.
Do I use the High Court Number from Bradford District Registry or the "Order for recovery of award" County Court number from Liverpool on form N245?

Its always the claim number. Not the bailiffs reference number

Should I have a warrant number? for form N245 or is that the Writ of Control number.

You don't need a warrant number. There is no warrant, Its writ of control which have the claim number at the top.

Do I need to send a N244 and fill in another EX-160 for the separate application?,

You do not need a separate fee remission claim for the Firm N245. there is no fee. Only one fee remission claim for the N244.

You can do it online and put the HWF reference at the top-right of the form N244.

https://www.gov.uk/get-help-with-court-fees

I confused things by mentioning N244.

Can the debt cease to be exercisable on just the N244?

Yes, always apply to the court to suspend the enforcement power until the court has disposed of your application.

If the car's not on the highway and not up the drive can it be parked on private land and be safe, even if that land could be owned by the creditor?

Yes.

The law says the bailiff may only take control of goods where the debtor lives or carries on a trade of business.

The creditors land is none of them, but I personally would avoid using the creditor's lane because the creditor can make a separate application to the court to take control of your car on their land. Paragraph 15 of Schedule 12 of the Tribunals Courts and Enforcement Act 2007.

To which Court do I send the N245 please? Bradford or Liverpool?

Whichever court issued the writ. the court named is at the top of the writ. If you don't know which court, then apply to the High Court at room E07, the Royal Courts of Justice, The Strand in London.

Once you have emailed your application, phone and email the court, keep chasing them to get your application before a high court master (procedural judge).

[Cruola]

@Tourettes

When I had a visit from bailiffs I got all the Doctors letters and they totally ignored them.

They came 6 times, even on the day my mother was cremated.

On another day they thought I was out they tried to kick the door in thinking nobody would notice and they would say they found it open, my neighbour was watching them through his door viewer and the plasterboard around door frame had cracks from it.

I was in a very dark place (still am really), I was totally silent, had a bin bag on letter box & velcro over door viewer, so they could see nothing, I was waiting there silently with petrol and knives, luckily they gave up. I was already suicidal so taking them out at the same time if they forced entry seemed appropriate in the state of mind I was in.

My strategy was not to engage, they tried every trick, for example putting the amount owed (7k) at between £12k and £14k on the paperwork they put through the door, apparently this is to get you to ring them up and query the amount.

The stress they create is obscene and I can't imagine how it has affected someone with your condition.

If your debt is under £20k and your income is derisory and you do not have a car worth over £1000 in your name, then consider getting a Debt Relief Order (DRO). This is like a mini bankruptcy, it costs £90 and after a year if your finances do not change then the DRO wipes out almost all debt (I think HMRC and local authority debts may still apply)

https://www.nationaldebtline.org/EW/fac ... dvice.aspx

I have been waiting for 6 year limitation on debts to run out, one went for a CCJ at the last moment (extending debt for 6 years) and another went for High Court Enforcement when I was made homeless, soon the limitations act will reduce the debt to under £20k, I have no income and so to wipe out my remaining debt will hopefully put the matter to an end.

The HCEO's gave up in the end, interestingly the creditor got in touch apologising for using them, he did not know of their truly awful tactics and after seeing an episode of can't pay won't pay he felt really bad. He also told me that despite my Ex paying contributions to the debt he got next to nothing from the HCEO's as apparently they put the debt the create before his.

That is a lesson for anyone considering High Court Enforcement. I really think High Court Enforcement needs reform, it became the new home of cowboy clampers and several of those on TV either have criminal records or dodgy associations with people convicted of very serious offences.

I think High Court Enforcement should be restricted to company debt and they should pay the usual fees for the High Court to put a matter before a real High Court Judge (tens of thousands).